Russell Stevenson interviews Dr. Michael Mackay about the use of seer stones in the Book of Mormon translation process. (Here)
Some may not realize that Joseph continued to use seer stones after the Book of Mormon was translated. He used them while translating the Bible, when dictating revelations, and even when giving patriarchal blessings.
After his death, Joseph’s stones were passed down to succeeding presidents of the church and looked upon as sacred relics.
Dr. Mackay claims the seer stones were not simply a tool to give Joseph confidence to translate; they represent something much more significant.
Listeners will likely agree with Dr. Mackay’s conclusions to varying degrees. Nevertheless, his perspective is one worthy of contemplation.
Brandt,
You make a good side point beyond the minor clarification I was making. I just get a little weary of seeing Elder McConkie misquoted or misunderstood so much, even in a scholarly presentation. (Mike should have differentiated between “seer stone” and “interpreters/urim and thummim” in his comment.)
I would point out one item on the larger issue you address, which is something I don’t insist on but which seems to get ignored, and that is D&C 20:8. This verse tells us that the Lord “gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon.”
Since the Lord knows exactly how he had Joseph translate the BofM, the question becomes what were “the means which were before prepared.” I read in the BofM the various passages talking about the interpreters being prepared (not a seer stone), and I read about the interpreters being removed along with the plates and breastplate from the stone box in Joseph’s history, so I naturally conclude, despite disparate and sometimes confusing or contradicting historical accounts from others to the contrary, that the Nephite interpreters were the “means” before prepared, and the seer stone was not those “means”. I admit that there is always a possibility that such was the case, but in my view it seems highly doubtful. If Joseph hadn’t dug the well, he still would have been shown the stone box in vision by Moroni. I have personally concluded that the “means” “before prepared” were the Nephite interpreters.
I know Pres. Nelson has allowed for Joseph to use the seer stone in translating, also, which is just fine with me, but I don’t believe Joseph used the interpreters only for the lost 116 pages and then used only the seer stone for the rest. But I do allow for some swapping of these sacred revelatory instruments, though that seems less plausible to me.
The passage from section 20 is just so very strong, especially when taken with Joseph’s own statements of “translating by the gift and power of God.”
One minor item I would point out as completely wrong that needs to be cleared up. In the interview, Mike says: “You also have them mentioned in Mormon Doctrine, for
example. It’s created some great folklore. In Mormon Doctrine, McConkie
says, ‘Oh yeah, the Urim and Thummim is in the First Presidency’s
vault,’ right, which I remember on my mission thinking that was the
coolest thing I had ever heard.”
This is evidently a false memory not double-checked for accuracy. In Mormon Doctrine, under Urim & Thummim, Elder McConkie actually quotes Pres. J. F. Smith as teaching that the Urim and Thummim or interpreters were returned to the Angel Moroni after the BofM translation was completed.
We also have this quotation from then-Elder Harold B. Lee:
I was up with Brother Packer and some of the Seminary teachers, and amidst a questioning period when many of the questions couldn’t be answered by anyone fully and truthfully, one asked, “Brother Lee, does the church have the Urim and Thummim?” and I replied, “Not to my knowledge.” He wasn’t satisfied with that, but he pressed it again and he said, “Well, we were told that the church does have the Urim and Thummim,” And I said, “Well, I think perhaps I should say that the one who told you that wasn’t handicapped by too much information.” Now I say to you here today, wherever the Urim and Thummim is, it is in the custody of divine messengers. And I want to tell you something else, if it is ever given for use among us today, it will be given to the Prophet of the Lord and to no one else. Make no mistake about that. (“But Arise and Stand upon Thy Feet—and I Will Speak with Thee,” Address to the Brigham Young University Studentbody, 7 February 1955, 10.)
People continue to misquote Mormon Doctrine and Elder McConkie, but this was only a minor point in the interview. I do hope the rest of the research is more accurate.
For myself, I don’t believe that seer stone culture should be a larger part of our theology. I believe that we should operate under the keys of the priesthood.
Dennis,
I think much of the confusion would be lessened if we could move away from using the term “urim and thummim” to cover both the interpreters and the seer stones. No, we don’t have the interpreters. Yes, we have some seer stones. Yes, Joseph used both, and both were later termed “urim and thummim”, which is technically incorrect and creates confusion with the Old Testament sacred artifacts.