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Samuel the Lamanite’s prophecy of destruction came to pass in the “the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month.” The beginning of the description of the destruction emphasized that it was greater than any in that land had known before:
There arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land. And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder. And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land. (3 Nephi 8:5–7)
Surely any real-world location for the Book of Mormon should be able to demonstrate that the destructive events catalogued in Third Nephi could have taken place in that location.
The Heartland’s Destructive Earthquake
As Neville approached this question, he wrote:
What kind of terrain can experience a calamity in which the “whole face of the land” changes, yet it remains recognizable centuries later?
The term “face of the land” suggests the changes affected the face, or surface, of the land but left major features intact. What the text describes is not volcanic action, or a shift in the earth’s crust that formed or destroyed huge mountains. Instead, the text describes an earthquake accompanied by a major shift in alluvial lands.
One place in the world where exactly this has occurred is along the Mississippi River.[1]
Before discussing his evidence, it must be noted that the entire argument is built upon a thesis Neville had already decided upon. Without saying why it is not volcanic action, he asserts that it must be an earthquake and a flooded river. By establishing that definition, he can then suggest that only the Mississippi River has shown conditions that fit. Pretty much any hypothesis is supported by defining the problem to fit the hypothesis. In this case, does the suggestion of an earthquake and an alluvial plain fit the descriptions in the text?
Third Nephi 8: 6 requires a tempest. Neville uses one of the 1828 Webster’s dictionary definitions to restate tempest as a tornado. This allows him to have a wind event that does periodically occur in that region.[2] That much is reasonable.
An obvious aspect of the descriptions of destruction is the shaking of the earth. Neville proposes:
The largest earthquakes known to have struck what is now the continental United States were the New Madrid earthquakes of 1811-1812. New Madrid is located along the Mississippi River, about 170 miles south of St. Louis on the border between Missouri and Tennessee. The earthquakes had a magnitude of around 8.0 and the impact was felt as far away as Washington, D.C.”[3]
He also indicates that similar magnitude earthquakes occur around every 500 years along the New Madrid fault.[4]
One of the things that Neville does not address is the problem of time. Three Nephi 8:19 reports:
And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land. (3 Nephi 8:19)
This is an important omission if Neville’s quakings are truly from an earthquake. A blog post from the University of Utah Seismograph Stations answers a question about how long earthquakes last: “Generally, only seconds. Strong ground shaking during a moderate to large earthquake typically lasts about 10 to 30 seconds.”[5] The longest official earthquake on record was the 2004 Sumatran-Andaman earthquake which lasted eight to ten minutes.[6] Neville does not explain the discrepancy between perhaps ten minutes and three hours.
Mesoamerica and Volcanic Activity
The reason that Neville introduced his version of the destructions with the statement that it was not due to volcanic activity is precisely because volcanic activity is a prominent explanation for all the facets of the destructions listed in Third Nephi. It is important to note that at least three degreed geologists have written about the destructions in Third Nephi, and all three agree that volcanic activity is the best explanation.[7] Bart Kowallis specifically noted:
The 3 Nephi 8 account cannot be explained solely as a massive earthquake or storm, for neither of these natural disasters can account for all the features described. All of the features of the account can, however, be explained by a specific type of natural phenomenon occurring only in certain geologic settings—an explosive eruption, similar to the eruption in Papua New Guinea and to the eruption on Santorini.[8]
Of interest for the Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon is that the presence of active volcanoes is not limited to just the events in Third Nephi. Jerry Grover suggests that the story of how the brothers, Nephi and Lehi, were freed from a prison in the land of Nephi by an event plausibly involving volcanic activity. After recounting the story, Grover writes:
The other events that occurred considered together have all the hallmarks of a mild volcanic eruption, which would typically include an earthquake corresponding with the start of the eruption, and then a series of mild earthquakes of similar size spaced over the period of the eruption.[9]
The three geologists all provide important information, the details of which I will not attempt to provide. I will quote part of Jerry Gover’s conclusion to his book on the topic:
Another goal of the endeavor was to analyze what the Book of Mormon itself actually says and apply it to the known geology of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, independent of any of the geographic models, and determine if any definitive results can be derived with regards to Book of Mormon events. Although scientists are reticent to use the word ”proven” there are certain statements that can be made that are very close to the “proven” standard.
A volcanic eruption occurred as part of the 3rd Nephi destruction. A volcanic eruption alone cannot account for all of the destruction in 3rd Nephi; the destruction necessarily involved a regional earthquake. Based on current data, a regional earthquake and one volcano and their after-effects can account for all of the destruction in 3 rd Nephi, with the exception of the city of Jerusalem, which appears to be a local event.The primary regional earthquake occurred on the Veracruz fault system The primary volcano involved is indicated to be the San Martín volcano based on its position in the Isthmus and on the Veracruz fault system, and the eruption need not have exceeded a 4 on the VEI explosivity scale. [10]
Conclusion
The explanations for the destructions in Third Nephi are dramatically different for the two models. The difference is necessitated because there is no adequate volcanic activity in the Heartland and therefore something else must be used to explain the described destructions. While there are a few of the elements of the destruction that can be explained by an earthquake along the New Madrid fault, the descriptions are consistent with earthquakes, but not with the Book of Mormon description for how long the quakings lasted.
For the Mesoamerican model, on the other hand, three professional geologists insist that volcanic activity had to be involved. This is an important disqualifying requirement for the Heartland model. First, the requirement was established by qualified geologists. Second, the whole set of requirements cannot be placed in the Heartland.
Not only does the Mesoamerican model fit the entirety of the requirements, but Grover has presented evidence for a specific volcano that erupted in the approximate timeframe as the destructions in Third Nephi and which was of a type to fit the requirements. According to geologists, Third Nephi is at home in Mesoamerica, but the descriptions are foreign to the Heartland model.
Some other information relative to a volcano in the Book of Mormon, the word volcano is not found in
Biblical Hebrew or ancient Egyptian, so “great storm”, which was usedin the Bible, is an appropriate translation of the event. In the 1792 eruption of the San Martin volcano, which is the likely BOM volcano in the Mesoamerican models, it was described by the natives as a “greatstorm”. Sherrizah comes from the Biblical Sharezer which means “princeof fire”. The god of volcanoes in Mesoamerica is the “prince of fire.” Tower in Hebrew also means a hill or mountain, so the tower of Sherrizah makes perfect sense as a volcano.
Nine times, Christ the Creator said that He caused the seismic and atmospheric cataclysms at the time of His death. There was also an earthquake and a storm in Jerusalem at the same time, and probably in the land of the Lost Tribes as well, where Christ visited after he visited the Nephites. Some of the effects may have been experienced world-wide. This was not a natural event that can be explained by natural geological and tropospheric understanding. It was a supernatural event.
The Word controls the elements of the earth. The elements obey His voice. Current scientific understanding can’t explain how the Red Sea was parted, and the waters were a wall on each side (Exodus 14:22) while the Israelites crossed through on DRY ground, as Nephi confirmed (1 Nephi 17:26). The waters were even taken out of the mud at the bottom of the sea so the Israelites wouldn’t get bogged down. To give the Israelites time to get across, the Lord caused a CLOUD OF DARKNESS to cover the Egyptians, which was not caused by volcanic activity. There are no volcanos in the Sinai.
“And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness; And THERE COULD BE NO LIGHT, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that THERE COULD NOT BE ANY LIGHT AT ALL; And THERE WAS NOT ANY LIGHT SEEN, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land. And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days THERE WAS NO LIGHT SEEN.” (3 Nephi 8:20-23, emphasis added)
This darkness is far beyond anything natural. There could be no fire kindled, but not for a lack of oxygen or too much particulate in the air or the people would all have died. This was a darkness that there is no natural explanation for. It is more than the absences of light. It is the presence of something called darkness.
The Lord did not use natural processes to change water to wine, feed the five thousand with a few loaves and fishes, make the blind to see or to raise the dead. Current geological understanding can’t tell us how the brother of Jared moved the mountain Zerin (Ether 12:30), or how Enoch caused mountains to move, and earthquakes, and rivers to change their course by his command.
“…and [Enoch] spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; “(Moses 7:13).
Current geological understanding can’t tell us how a highway will be cast up in the midst of the great deep to bring the Lost Tribes to America, but we know He will cause it to happen because He said He would. Current geological understanding can’t tell us how, prior to His coming, that the mountains will come down and the islands will become one land, and how the earth will return to the way it was before it was divided, but we know it will happen (D&C 133:22-27). The events of 3 Nephi 8-9 are just a sample of what is to come world-wide.
On this earth, the Lord usually lets nature take its own course, but sometimes He takes control and calms the sea and the wind. However, in these latter-days the Lord cursed the waters and has allowed Satan to have power over the waters (D&C 61:14-19), which would include the waters in the air that provide the energy for hurricanes and tornados. The Lord once caused the waters to cover the earth, and once He rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah.
The events of 3 Nephi 8-9 were not natural events. They were supernatural. The argument that Christ could not cause the events, that He said He caused, to be continent-wide, is not valid.
“This was not a natural event that can be explained by natural geological and tropospheric understanding. It was a supernatural event.”
This statement is problematic for a couple of reasons. First, it begs the question that we can easily and neatly separate “natural” from “supernatural” phenomena—as if divine actions could never work through natural processes. Elder James E. Talmage, for instance, warned against drawing too sharp a line between the two, emphasizing that God often uses natural means to bring about his purposes.
Second, there’s an inconsistency here. If you’re going to claim that your Book of Mormon geography model is supported by scientific evidence—say, through geology, archaeology, or climatology—then you can’t later say it’s beyond the reach of scientific scrutiny when people point out problems. You can’t have it both ways. Either your model is subject to testing, evidence, and possible refutation (as science demands), or it stands on faith alone and thus can’t legitimately claim scientific support. Invoking “supernatural” explanations selectively to avoid hard questions undermines the credibility of your argument.
In contrast, the Mesoamerican model of Book of Mormon geography that Sorenson, Gardner, and Grover have articulated here and elsewhere treats the events in 3 Nephi—such as the cataclysmic destructions accompanying Christ’s crucifixion—as real phenomena that can be examined scientifically. Scholars can investigate volcanic eruptions, seismic activity, and other natural disasters in Mesoamerica’s historical and geological record to see if they correspond to the textual accounts. And it turns out they do! This model thus respects both the scriptural narrative and the methods of scientific inquiry, allowing for a rigorous evaluation rather than retreating behind claims of the purely supernatural.
In short, if your geography model is based on observable, testable phenomena (in this case the phenomena reported in 3 Nephi), then it must be open to scientific critique. If it’s fundamentally a matter of faith, then it should be treated as such—and not be presented as scientifically validated.
So, IOW, sinçe it is all done by nonscientific miracles, we should throw out all of the limited models and return to the hemispheric model that Joseph embraced?
Ignore the evidence that the earth is billions of years old. Accept Genesis when it teaches a flat, stationary earth, with the Sun revolving around it?
Why? Because of nonscientific miracles!
Nonscientific baloney!
An argument made against the Heartland is there are no volcanoes in the Eastern US. But the darkness accompanied by a known Earthquake makes that a moot point.
Volcanoes don’t behave similar to what was mentioned in the text. That the sky cleared at the same time as the earth stopped shaking. Clouds of ash and smoke don’ t suddenly disperse. Unless you want to attribute it all to the supernatural because there is no other explanation.
But that phenomena was experienced in the New Madrid Quake.
John James Audubon wrote about it: http://www.showme.net/~fkeller/quake/lib/eyewitness1.htm
Dr. Samuel Latham Mitchell was contacted and researched – same link above.
This is the same that Martin Harris visited with the characters from the gold plates.
Total darkness mentioned by a Eliza Bryan:
“On the 16th of December 1811, about two o’clock, a.m., we were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation of the atmosphere, with sulphurous vapor, causing total darkness. ”
https://kentuckykindredgenealogy.com/2019/03/04/kentucky-bend-and-the-1811-1812-new-madrid-earthquakes-fulton-county/
This site has a comment with no source, that a lighted lamp did not help:
“According to eyewitnesses, the skies in the affected areas turned so dark during the earthquakes that a lighted lamp did not help, and the air was full of sulfur fumes…”
https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-End-of-the-World-New-Madrid-Earthquake-1811-1812
This 129 page, 1912 USGS publication of the Quake mentions darkness and Dr. Mitchell as in the footnotes: https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0494/report.pdf
The plates were authenticated, the geography known long before any Mesoamerican Two Cumorahs idea came up.
Two Cumorahs is a later idea originating in Lamoni, IA and Independence, MO some 56 years after the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum.
And I can prove it.
Zarahemala was burned by fire, as was Jacobugath, which was farther north. The New Madrid fault could not have created a dark mist that far north, nor that much fiery destruction. IIRC, the Heartland model has Zarahemala near modern day Nauvoo. That’s 350 miles, farther to Jacobugath.
I live in Indianapolis, about 220 miles from the fault. A 5.0 earthquake there several years ago, caused only slight movement here for a few seconds.
Meanwhile, Mt Saint Helens caused an ashen darkness over hundreds of miles, lasting for days. My brother’s car, in Missoula Mt was covered in two inches of ash A distance of 470 miles. The BoM description matches volcanic eruption.
I believe the Prophet Mormon knew the difference between ash and vapor.
In 3 Nephi he quotes the Lord who is quoting Malachi about ashes.
But I don’t believe Malachi was referring to Mt. Saint Helens.
It was along the lines about the Second Coming.
A discussion of the problems with the New Madrid earthquake smog/fog
being sufficient for the 3rd Nephi event is discussed elsewhere.
There is one other problem that your post has literally illuminated
well is that except for some persons inside of buildings were dust was
shaken out of the rafters, this evidence indicates they were able to
light lights. 3rd Nephi 8:21 indicates that they were unable to light
candles or torches or kindle wood. Verse 20 indicates that they could
actually “feel the vapor of darkness” which occurs with a volcanic ash
storm but not with earthquake fog/smog.
Stephen and Gerald,
You are both over expanding the facts of this one event to obfuscate the whole. I also said, “On this earth, the Lord usually lets nature take its own course.”
It is obvious from the text that Christ caused the events of 3 Nephi 8-9. It is also obvious from the text that the darkness that was created was nothing anyone can explain.
“It is also obvious from the text that the darkness that was created was nothing anyone can explain.”
There is nothing “obvious” about this, your assertion notwithstanding. Grover et al. have, in my judgment, very effectively explained the darkness as an aspect of volcanism.
Furthermore, my point still stands: you don’t get to invoke natural explanations (e.g., tornados, which you cite to fulfill the whirlwinds in 3 Nephi) and then suddenly retreat to supernatural explanations when things are problematic for your model.
Volcanic ash cannot explain three days of darkness that not even candle can be lit or seen. Ash that thick would be a Pompeii where no one would survive.
There is no reason the Lord could not cause regular whirlwinds along with the darkness. They are not mutually exclusive.
“Volcanic ash cannot explain three days of darkness that not even candle can be lit or seen. Ash that thick would be a Pompeii where no one would survive.”
That is not a true statement. Ash clouds that thick have been survivable.
For example, on 21 May 2011, the Grímsvötn volcano on Iceland erupted, filling the air with ash so dense it completely blocked out all light in the nearby town of Kirkjubæjarklaustur. This video, taken at noon the next day, shows how thick the cloud was: https://youtu.be/CdtnsTOA2qY
This event closely matches the Book of Mormon’s description of “the vapor of smoke and of darkness” (3 Nephi 8:20–22; 10:13) which enveloped the Nephite lands.
You just proved my point. I see headlights in that video.
Mormon’s description never mentions ash. That is your opinion.
OK, the arguments are getting a bit inane from Mr. Brandley by indicating that he actually thinks that the Nephites had electric lights!!! The text said it was dark and they couldn’t light any kind of fire or light, not that the mist of darkness disabled their high beams, LOL.
“THERE COULD NOT BE ANY LIGHT AT ALL; And THERE WAS NOT ANY LIGHT SEEN, NEITHER FIRE, NOR GLIMMER…” (3 Nephi 8:21-22)
Brother Brandley:
Your quotation is correct, but the assumption that not seeing an ancient light source, which was related to fire or the sun, means that the same applies to a modern more artificial source is a presentist reading–or perhaps overly literal. The conditions are simply not comparable.
In a darkness so dense that a torch could not be seen in front of your face, even headlights could not provide enough light to be able to drive.
This unusual darkness lasted for the three days Christ was in the tomb. Again, this was not natural but was coordinated by Him.
I was just completing my undergraduate degree at Central Washington University in Ellensburg, Washington, when on May 18, 1980, Mount Saint Helens erupted (VEI 5). Ellensburg is roughly 90 miles from Mount Saint Helens, and slightly north of the ash cloud vector that day. Yet we had a good solid day of thick solid darkness and another three to five days of gloom.
On that day, just before the eruption, I happened to be with a group of young adults in the institute building. We were reading the Book of Mormon. We had just finished reading 3 Nephi 8, when we received word to evacuate. That experience has cemented in my mind the reality and visual/tactile experience of that chapter.
Thank you again for an interesting article. It was fun to reflect on my own experience 45 years ago.
The major earthquake and volcanic and magma eruption events in North America in the latitudes where the continental US lies today are associated with the Pacific Ring of Fire, including volcanoes such as Mt. St. Helens (1980), Mt. Rainier, Mt. Adams, Mt. Hood, etc., the Cascadia Subduction Zone (which had a 9,0 earthquake similar to the 2011 Great Tohoku Japan Earthquake and Tsunami, which last occurred in January 1700 AD and launched a tidal wave that was recorded as striking Japan a few days later. Some 30 million years ago, magma flowed in sheets hundreds of feet thick over eastern Oregon and Washington, reaching the Pacific (before the uplift of the Cascade Mountains), the magma hot spot moving across what is now the 50 mile wide “smile” across southern Idaho and creating the Snake River Plain, eventually creating an eruption caldera that encompasses the Island Park region in NE Idaho and the Yellowstone caldera that encompasses the central park ring road, which erupted 600,000 years ago, blanketing a swath covering the entire center of the CONUS with feet of ash. The residual magma under this trail created the magma flows in SE Idaho as recently as 2000 years ago, reaching all the way across present day Interstate 15 south of Idaho Falls. My house west of the city sat on shallow soil covering thick layers of cracked basalt full of voids left by gas bubbles.
The Ice Ages of the last 2 million years were overlaid on this violent geologic activity. If you want to place the destruction described in 3 Nephi 8 into the CONUS in 33 AD, you would have to place all the major Nephite cities that were destroyed into the Pacific Northwest, including along Puget Sound and the Pacific Ocean coast, to account for cities drowned. That is 2,000 miles away from upstate New York. Ice Age disasters overlaid on this landscape included the catastrophic drainage of Lake Bonneville through Preston Idaho, the Snake River and Hells Canyon, and then emptying into the Columbia River, where it backed up behind the Wallula Gap, flooding the Tri-Cities under 1,000 feet of water, then racing down the Columbia River Gorge to Portland and the ocean. In the same era that the ice-free corridor opened from Beringia and across Alaska, there were also repeated formation of glacial dams across the Idaho panhandle that formed natural reservoirs in northwest Montana, which would break through repeatedly and scour eastern Washington and carry house sized boulders encased in icebergs out to the Willamette Valley and the Pacific at Astoria. There is no evidence extant of complex cities or large structures anything like those in Meso-America, or even Cahokia.
The Book of Mormon narrative covering a thousand years does not describe an annual winter season of snow and ice, which seems to me to exclude most of the CONUS, except southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and the Gulf States.
Consulting the text on this issue:
3 Nephi 9
“3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla HAV E I burned with fire”…
“4 And behold, that great city Moroni HAVE I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea…”
“5 And behold, that great city Moronihah HAV E I covered with earth…”
“6 And behold, the city of Gilgal HAVE I caused to be sunk…”
“7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters HAVE I caused to come up in the stead thereof…”
“8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these HAVE I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof HAVE I buried up in the depths of the earth…”
“9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, HAVE I caused to be burned with fire…”
“10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, HAVE I caused to be burned with fire…”
“12 And many great destructions HAVE I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.”
As Nephi said, the power of the Creator of the earth can change sea into land (1 Nephi 17:50). Current understandings of geology cannot eliminate this event from any place on the face of the earth.
“Current understandings of geology cannot eliminate this event from any place on the face of the earth.”
With natural laws removed from the equation, the Book of Mormon could be anywhere. The NY Cumorah might have been somewhere else–and moved. If we toss out known natural science, then anything anywhere works because there are no constraints.
In this particular case, the Creator specifically said that He caused it.
Which certainly falls within God’s ability to know everything in the future of the creations that he made and put into action. God pretty much works through the systems he created. When it says he caused it to happen, that does not mean that he came down at that instant and did something. He knows well in advance what the natural systems that he caused to be set up will do and when it will happen. The wicked are often destroyed by the wicked for example. He doesn’t make them do it, but he knows exactly what will happen and when it will happen.
But you realize that this invalidates your model as well? If everything is different it is impossible to know.
It doesn’t invalidate anything. It just means that nothing can be eliminated using this particular issue.
Have any professional or academic geologists supported the Heartlanders’ claims that the destruction depicted in 3 Nephi can be attributed to catastrophic earthquakes or forest fires? I ask this genuinely. It is noteworthy that, as far as I am aware, the geologists who have examined 3 Nephi are in general agreement that volcanic activity provides the most plausible explanation for the text.
On the other hand, Heartlanders don’t actually care about science (as evidenced by their frequent misuse of genetic evidence and their casual reliance on archaeological forgeries to support their model, not to mention the wildly unscientific Universal Model promoted by Heartlanders), so I suppose my question doesn’t really matter.
While reasonable people can argue over distances traveled by Nephites in the BoM, this is clearly a disqualifying requirement for the Heartland model.
There are other issues, such as three days darkness, explained by volcanic eruption, but not an earthquake. If a hurricane hit in Mesoamerica at the same time, if would explain the whirl winds and flooding, which sank many cities.
The three days of darkness occurred in the Heartland Model as indicated by the New Madrid Quake of 1811.
It’s called *Earthquake Fog* unique to the Eastern US.
On page 44 of this book:
https://archive.org/details/newmadridearthqu0000myro/page/n3/mode/2up?q=fog
“A writer from New Madrid states that at the time of the shock the air was clear, but in five minutes it became very dark, and the darkness continued until nearly morning, during which period there were six shocks. At 6.30 the air cleared, but at the severe shock later in the morning the darkness returned!”
This correlates perfectly with 3 Nephi Ch 9 and with 3 Nephi 10:9:
“And it came to pass that thus did the three days pass away. And it was in the morning, and the darkness dispersed from off the face of the land, and the earth did cease to tremble, and the rocks did cease to rend, and the dreadful groanings did cease, and all the tumultuous noises did pass away.”
That is when the trembling of the earth stopped the darkness stopped as well.
Verse 9 above had nothing to do with volcanic explosions. That’s an assumption made by first believing in a Mesoamerican model then applying the model to the text.
Whirlwinds or tornados mentioned are also well known in the Heartland of the US.
Again, you removed the pin in the map, the Hill Cumorah in New York, by ignoring Joseph Smith. Thus you get confused.
I am aware of that darkness. As darkness, it works. The problem is the earthquake. It simply doesn’t fit the description. The only way an earthquake works is if one one ignores facts.
One other problem about the mists of darkness being interpreted as earthquake smog is that it is mutually exclusive to the Heartlands assertion that the tempests and whirlwinds are large storms with associated tornadoes covering the eastern United States. Earthquake smog requires a quiescent meteorology for it’s formation and continuation. Tornados and large storms are mutually exclusive with earthquake smog. In the December 11, 1811 New Madrid earthquake, the weather was described as the skies being clear after some prior days of overcast. So it was able to form and even in quiescent meteorological conditions still dissipated within 6 hours or so. Had there been any significant wind it wouldn’t have lasted even that long.
The Baja California model suffers from a similar problem as they are a volcano-less model and rely on a hurricane to explain the tempest and whirlwind, yet rely on coastal smog coming inland immediately for the darkness immediately after a 3 hour hurricane passed through. Not meteorologically possible.
The anecdotal “earthquake smog” reported in the December 16, 1811 New Madrid earthquake consists primarily of condensate from saturated soils right on the fault (within a few miles) at the time of the earthquake. It only occurs right along and close to the fault. It only lasted a few hours immediately at the time of the earthquake shock and then cleared. The reports of the fog did indicate that they could light fires or lanterns, with a visibility of up to 50 feet. So it does not meet the Book of Mormon requirement that the mist of darkness covered all the land northward and the land southward. The Book of Mormon indicated that the mist of darkness covered the land after the initial three hours, not immediately so does not meet this requirement. It does not meet the BOM requirement that there was no ability to light fires because of the mist of darkness. The BOM indicates that the vapor of smoke and darkness overpowered and killed people. Earthquake fog has never been indicated to have any immediate health effects on anyone let alone kill them.
In addition, with the nature of the structure of the New Madrid fault, all major earthquakes on the New Madrid fault have continued with after shocks periodically for months and years. This does not square with the BOM event where the quaking ended within 3 days.
Fair points
Am I allowed to quote Matthew Roper?
Note #9 at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah
Roper, Matthew, “Limited Geography and the Book of Mormon: Historical Antecedents and Early Interpretations”, Maxwell Institute, 2004, cites early Limited Mesoamerican settings for the Book of Mormon advanced by Hills, L. E. (RLDS), “Geography of Mexico and Central America from 2234 B.C. to 421 A.D.”, Independence, Missouri, 1917; Hills, “A Short Work on the Popol Vuh and the Traditional History of the Ancient Americans”, Independence, Missouri, 1918; and Hills, “New Light on American Archaeology”, Independence, Missouri, 1924
You quote from a source about a 1811 quake:
*The earthquake smog was “a few miles” from the fault
*It lasted only “a few hours”
*They could see up to “50 feet”
Then an absolute statement—>”So it doesn’t meet the requirements.”
I’ve read this before.
Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery don’t meet the requirements.
The Hill Cumorah isn’t in New York. The Hill in New York doesn’t meet the requirements.
Horses don’t belong. They don’t meet the requirements. Everybody in The Book of Mormon walked. Not a single horse was ridden.
This reference to some unknown god to some absolute- “the requirements that must be met.”
No one said the New Madrid quake of 1811 was the quake in The Book of Mormon.
It’s an example of what occurred in The Book of Mormon. Imagine destruction on a wider scale. Lasting 3 days. Smog or gases arising from the ground from the quaking of the earth. This fog is unique to soil of the Eastern US.
Some were overcome. Some were not. Tornados. Lightning. Earthquakes. The movement of the Earth. Land sinking and rising. Water rushing in. Cities tumbling, people being crushed. Cities being burned.
The Prophet Mormon is abridging records of different accounts from different areas mentioned after the fact.
Not all things happened in all places. Proof again of a large area. Not a narrow neck.
The Mesoamerican model geology has the eruption of a volcano along with a regional earthquake. So both were occurring at the same time.
First the text does not indicate that there was an instantaneous clearing of the darkness, it just stated that the darkness dispersed in the morning. Second, the volcano may have ceased it’s primary eruption before that initiating dissipation which was complete by the morning, and the regional fault system ceased it’s aftershock in the morning.
I already discussed the earthquake smog or fog from the New Madrid fault in a different reply chain but reinclude it here for convenience:
he anecdotal “earthquake smog” reported in the December 16, 1811 New Madrid earthquake consists primarily of condensate from saturated soils right on the fault (within a few miles) at the time of the earthquake. It only occurs right along and close to the fault. It only lasted a few hours immediately at the time of the earthquake shock and then cleared. The reports of the fog did indicate that they could light fires or lanterns, with a visibility of up to 50 feet. So it does not meet the Book of Mormon requirement that the mist of darkness covered all the land northward and the land southward. The Book of Mormon indicated that the mist of darkness covered the land after the initial three hours, not immediately so does not meet this requirement. It does not meet the BOM requirement that there was no ability to light fires because of the mist of darkness. The BOM indicates that the vapor of smoke and darkness overpowered and killed people. Earthquake fog has never been indicated to have any immediate health effects on anyone let alone kill them.
In addition, with the nature of the structure of the New Madrid fault, all major earthquakes on the New Madrid fault have continued with after shocks periodically for months and years. This does not square with the BOM event where the quaking ended within 3 days.
One other problem about the mists of darkness being interpreted as earthquake smog is that it is mutually exclusive to the Heartlands assertion that the tempests and whirlwinds are large storms with associated tornadoes covering the eastern United States. Earthquake smog requires a quiescent meteorology for it’s formation and continuation. Tornados and large storms are mutually exclusive with earthquake smog. In the December 11, 1811 New Madrid earthquake, the weather was described as the skies being clear after some prior days of overcast. So it was able to form and even in quiescent meteorological conditions still dissipated within 6 hours or so. Had there been any significant wind it wouldn’t have lasted even that long.
The Baja California model suffers from a similar problem as they are a volcano-less model and rely on a hurricane to explain the tempest and whirlwind, yet rely on coastal smog coming inland immediately for the darkness immediately after a 3 hour hurricane passed through. Not meteorologically possible.
So the issue isn’t whether there is earthquake smog or fog that can occur on the New Madrid fault, it is that it is a local event that occurs near the fault in areas of saturated soils. It is not toxic which the BOM requires. The rotten egg gas smell that also sometimes occurs is because the anaerobic decomposition of the soil produces small amount of hydrogen sulfide which usually slowly dissipates, in the even of an earthquake when the soil is shaken more is released. Hydrogen sulfide at these levels is not toxic as it can be smelled. It is only dangerous when the concentrations are higher when it cannot be smelled (it knocks out the olfactory system).
“But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;” (3 Nephi 8:12)
The greatest destruction was from tornados in the land northward. The US Midwest is known as tornado alley.
The problem in the Heartland land northward isn’t so much the Heartland interpretation for storms/whirlwinds, it is that there isn’t any potential in their land northward for significant seismic activity that would meet the requirement for “exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth” sufficient to change the “whole face of the land”.
The Mississippi Valley area known as the New Madrid seismic zone was very active with strong earthquakes anciently. Craters of the Moon in Idaho had a major lava flow about 2100 years ago, indicating that the seismic activity of 3 Nephi was continent wide. ( USGS, “Craters of the Moon: Idaho’s last (and next?) volcanic eruption,” https://www.usgs.gov/observatories/yvo/news/craters-moon-idahos-last-and-next-volcanic-eruption )
For the collapse cities as described in the BOM, the New Madrid earthquake can cause that, but only within the attenuation zone of the fault that can cause that level of shaking which does not extend far enough to the locations in the Heartland model. The model is way too large. The majority of damage occurred in the land northward according to the BOM which also is a fatal flaw with the Heartland model.
As far as Craters of the Moon, it is not linked geologically to the New Madrid fault, and it is so far away from any of the models that it is not relevant to BOM geology discussions. There is absolutely no evidence of any volcanic activity in the eastern US where the Heartland is located during BOM times (no active volcanoes). One also needs to have a seismic zone where Ammonihah is located, which cannot be satisfied by the current Heartland models.